Siim Land on Keto & Fasting Benefits (Mistakes to Avoid + Top Tips)

(pleasant jingle) – Hello everyone, and
welcome to Bio Hackers Lab. I’m your host, Gary Kirwan
and on today’s episode I have Siim Land. Siim is an author, content creator, holistic health practitioner,
and high-performance coach. He has a degree in anthropology, but his passion is bio
hacking and self-improvement. He shares his thoughts
and tips on how to achieve what he likes to call,
“Body Mind Empowerment” through his podcast and
popular YouTube channel. Siim thanks so much for coming
on for an episode for today. – Yeah, thanks for inviting me and I’m excited to talk
about some cool topics. – Oh for sure I mean, with my introduction there
I mentioned how you’re into mind body empowerment, so the
topics that you can talk about are very vast you know
from nutrition, physiology, mindsets, motivation, so many things but the focus that I’m gonna be talking about and I wanna explore with you today is the ketogenic diet and fasting, which I know you produce
a lot of content around. So my first question for you then is why do you think the ketogenic diet is ideal or maybe the best
way for self improvement? – Well I would say that it’s
not, it’s not necessarily always the best thing for
all situations so to say. Like although the keto diet
in my opinion can be useful, let’s say for you know losing body fat, as well as you know improving
cognitive performance, it may not be always ideal and it may not you know work for some people either. Whether that be because of
some genetic predispositions, some medical conditions, or even like certain metabolic requirements. Like I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t
put like a high level athlete on the keto diet just because they do need to take into other, they
need like some other fuel sources as well like
more glucose and glycogen but in my own personal experience, the reason why I’m doing
like a keto diet is because of the stable energy levels
and more mental clarity that I experience through the day. So whenever I am in deeper ketosis then my cognition is definitely sharper and I will always have more focus
and that’s gonna in turn help me to produce more creative work and everything else that I do as well. Like you know produce the
podcast, create YouTube videos, I write several books,
and like keep myself you know kinda free from the
dependency of food so to say. Like keto and becoming more
fat deducted helps you to not be so dependent on constant feeding and not having to suffer
from these ups and downs of blood sugar rushes and you kinda teach your body to run on
your own body fat for fuel which in turn can help you to
become more self actualized. That’s the way I look at it so to say, keto helps me to overcome
this, the necessity for you know eating all the time
and that’s gonna help me to do other stuff that
improve my life much further. – And I mean I think that’s
what a lot of people would like is not to be dictated
by their food you know. Get hangry, yeah life is always just what, when’s my next meal, what do
I eat, I need energy levels. – Yeah because it, because it’s so crazy to think that people think
that skipping breakfast or skipping an entire day of
eating is something dangerous or is something you know deviant. That’s actually the norm under
which human evolved under so to say people did have
like three squares meals a day and they occasionally
very, very, very like, very frequently they
would go through days, days and days without eating all the time so it’s actually the norm
to be you know fat deducted and the norm to be intermittently
fasting all the time. – Cus that actually ties
into the second question I wanted to ask you was breaking up the keto and the fasting. Why do you think fasting is so beneficial for self improvement? And I think you’ve sort
of alluded to that, that there’s a historical
relevancy that humans are meant to go through fasted states. – Yeah it is like,
fasted, fasted physiology also has many other benefits like it’s really going to reduce inflammation, lower blood sugar, lowers insulin, and everything else, a
lot of the other benefits help to not only burn more
fat but also have like longevity boosting benefits
and general health benefits. So I would say that you know fasting, the idea, the pure fact that
fasting makes you healthier will help you to not only
improve your physical performance but also your mental performance and potentially help you
to live longer as well. Or at least increase the
health span so to say. The (stammering) youthful years so to say. – And so with, I’m gonna
get back into fasting a little bit more now but when
it comes to the ketogenic way of eating, there’s so many
different ways of doing, doing that way. Do you have a particular
preference or that you’ve had to experiment with different ways? Do you have any thoughts that
if we looked at a situation of just someone who wants to stay healthy through their years into their old age and has a sharp mind you
know, strong enough body, do you think there’s a certain way of doing keto that’s the best way? – I think that there
isn’t like a necessary, the best way for keto. And the perfect way of eating a keto diet would change between people and depending on their
like body composition, depending on their metabolic conditions, and medical conditions and such, but in general like I
myself have been trying out different types of keto
in addition to like the standard keto diet
I’ve been doing like cyclical keto diets,
and targeted keto diets, as well as like some sort
of modified keto diets where the protein take
will be slightly higher and the fat is reduced just
to promote more muscle growth and promote better body composition. Because the standard keto diet with the epileptic micronutrient ratios
where the carbs are very low and the protein is also very minimized, those, those, those kinds of diets, they may not be ideal for most people just because the decreased protein take and most people actually benefit from slightly modifying their keto micros by lowering their fat a little bit and increasing their protein
just just to compensate for some of the deficiencies. – So I love that you know it’s always the n=1, everyone’s different, depends on your situation, your physiology,
your metabolic history. – Yeah. – And there’s lots of
ways to get around this, so there’s no one right way. And then it comes to fasting, do you, what do you view as the, do you, cus there’s lots of
different ways to fast. What would be your beginner’s fast, or the way that you would
introduce someone to fasting? – Yeah, well. It is true let’s say like physiologically it could be possible to everyone to fast and there wouldn’t be no
negative side effects so to say. If you were to put into the wild then the only way for you to survive is to simply start fasting and you
would adapt quite fast, fast. So that, in like most of the kinda, you know things that inhibit the person to get used to the fasting has to do with like the psychological
habits and our daily routines that simply enforce certain ways of eating and they don’t necessarily crave the food, people tend to crave more
like it’s the routines, and eating foods at a
particular time of the day. So I would maybe for
someone who is interested in trying to start fasting
then I would simply advise them to try to skip a
certain meal during the day, whether that be in the
morning or in the evening. Like having like an earlier dinner or like a late, late brunch type of a breakfast. That would be simply
a good place to start, and to then kinda
gradually increase the time they spend in a fasting state
and postpone their meals in some way and time restricted
so that they would get used to more, more of like a
running on their own body fat and to not necessarily
be so dependent of this this different type of meal timings. – So it sounds like
that’s the beginner’s way, is just that time restricted feeding. That you have a smaller
eating window in the day before you get into these long day fasts, multiple day fasts. – Yeah, yeah yeah for sure. Like it’s not gonna be, first of all it’s simply gonna be like so much more difficult for
someone to jump right into five day fast if they haven’t
done anything like that. So yeah usually I would suggest you know starting to experiment with the daily time restricted feeding, whether that be like the
16 on hours of fasting and eight hours of adding
and then gradually moving on into a more, more confined eating windows. Like the Warrior Diet or one meal a day where you eat you eat
your food maybe within like two to four hours
or something like that. And then after that you may
like start experimenting with like 48 hour fasts, three day fasts, five days fasts, but those extended fasts they aren’t like that sustainable. You can’t do them all the time, and you they do hit like a
point of diminishing returns after a while so still the
daily time restricted feeding is still gonna be like the
biggest bang for you buck like so to say. You’re gonna gain most of the results and they’re more sustainable. – And that’s I guess
when looking at something that’s sustainable and longevity, that, the time restricted
feeding you can do if you’re in your 20s or
if you’re in your 80s, and that’s like the baseline. And then every now and then it sounds like you’re gonna tap into the multi,
multi-day fasts if needed. – Yeah like I myself try to
aim for like these longer fasts maybe once a quarter every year so to say. So in total I may have like
three, about three to four of these three to five
day fasts every year. And I do them not only that I need to, but I do them just to kinda put my body into this deeper state of autophagy namely and to really kinda give
my body a short break from all the food that I eat
and then to reset the system. And there is a lot of like a lot of longevity boosting benefits for that. So the reason I do it maybe once a quarter is that you know if you do it too often, if you fast too long all the time, then you maybe simply
predisposing yourself to some like muscle loss and
some other ailments so to say. So fasting all the time is not
gonna be optimal so to say. That’s why you wanna balance it out with proper refeeding and proper you know getting enough nutrients from
the food that you do eat. – And before we get into the how to to do multi-day fasts,
I’d like to just find out, talk, with the time
restricted feeding window, do you have a preference that people would should eat more breakfast
and lunch and skip dinner, or eat in the middle of the day, or eat a lunch and a dinner? I’d be interested to find out if you feel there’s a better window to eat in. – Well yeah like a lot
of other researchers like Satchin Panda he has
done like this research in time restricted feeding
and he has found that it’s most optimal to kinda
postpone the breakfast at least a few hours and then
consume the most of your food within eight, within an
eight hour time window. And maybe have like an earlier
dinner to not go to bed you know full, with a
full stomach so to say. That’s I would suggest that
it is a good idea to maybe at least stop the eating window about two hours or two to four
hours before going to bed. So that would be like
the optimal time window and that’s gonna help you to sleep better and that’s gonna prevent any
of the other side effects of going to bed with a full stomach. But in the morning, I would say
that it is still a good idea to postpone the breakfast at least a few hours in the morning because let’s say if you’ve
been sleeping all night then you are already in
this very mild fasted state. You’ve been fasting for
about you know eight hours, and if you immediately
start eating in the morning, then you’re going to, you’re going to have like a shorter fasting window versus if you were to
postpone your breakfast at least until the noon
then you’re going to prolong all the benefits as you will
get from the fasted state and you don’t necessarily you know usually the people don’t really feel that hungry in the morning either. And they much rather skip breakfast than skip dinner so to say and for dinner it’s always easier
to always stick to the other social aspects of eating as well. Like having family dinners or going out to some sort of a dinner
party, whatever it is. So I would say that
skipping breakfast is always a better solution than skipping dinner for most people and I myself find it more sustainable as well. – And I do hear it from a lot
of people from time to time saying yeah I’m just not hungry
first thing in the morning, and I have to wait till later in the day. So there’s, I think there’s
a lot of people who, who prefer that too. – Yeah it’s like when you’re in your, when you wake up in the morning, then you will also have like
higher levels of cortisol, which will help you to,
like a lot of people think that cortisol is bad,
of course like chronic, chronic level of cortisol is bad, but in the morning that
cortisol helps you to wake up and that cortisol will
also help you to mobilize a lot of your body fat stores
and to break down glycogen from the previous day
and it will always kinda set the right fat burning
state for the rest of the day so to say so you get
into deeper ketosis and you stimulate the other fat
burning metabolic pathways. So if you were to be eating immediately after waking up, then you’re
simply blocking that so to say you’re stopping that from
happening to a certain extent. And you’re gonna miss
out, miss out on like the potential benefits. So it’s simply like wiser
idea to like postpone, it’s like the easiest place
where you can push off the first meal and you’re gonna
extend the fasting window. – And a common question that
probably crops up at this stage is well I’m going to skip the food, can I still have a tea or
a coffee in the morning? Or does that break, break the fast? – I think it’s perfectly fine so to say like the amount of
calories in coffee and tea is like so minute just
like two calories per cup or something like that. And it’s not going to interfere with the processes of ketosis or
the processes of autophagy. Coffee and tea can actually
stimulate autophagy to a certain extent and
they do like stimulate some liver processes
and digestive processes which will kinda mimic some digestion. But in my opinion it’s not
like a big deal. (chuckling) It’s not gonna matter in the long term, you’re still gonna gain like
the most of the benefits of the fasts which are related to like the autophagy as well as the ketosis. – And with a, bringing the ketogenic diet, a lot of people would
have a very fatty coffee maybe in the morning there. Would an exceptionally fatty coffee, like two or three cups of butter coffee or very heavy cream coffee, does that break a fast? – Well the rationale is that because because it’s like pure fat, and it’s not gonna raise insulin and therefore it’s gonna
keep you in a fasted state. Although it will probably
keep you in ketosis, I would say that it’s still gonna inhibit some some of the autophagic
processes because autophagy’s more regulated
by nutrient signaling and that nutrient signaling can happen from like all the nutrients
and all the micronutrients like insulin, glucose, amino acids, protein, and fatty acids as well. Fatty acids can still
send the body the signal that there’s nutrients around so it may, you may, you may be still getting like the fat burning benefits
and the ketogenic benefits but you probably will miss out on some of the autophagy related benefits. Which itself is like fine
if your goal isn’t to necessarily stimulate the autophagy, then it’s not gonna matter so to say. You’re not gonna like,
you’re not going to gain a huge autophagy boost
as well if you’re fasting only for like 16 hours. So if the coffee’s helping
you to fast for longer then I would say it’s gonna be worth it. And if it’s gonna help you to
maintain a caloric deficit, then it can be also very useful. But at the same time it has to be, kinda go back to the person
of what their goal is with the fast and what they’re
hoping to get out of it and you know how many calories
do they end up consuming at the end of the day. – Yeah and I’m asking you
all these questions Siim because you’re the first person
I’ve got to explore fasting so excuse me if I go into a
couple of the details there. Talking about autophagy then. So just a normal, 16/8
eating window cycle, that, do you not get the benefits? Or do you get some autophagy benefits? Or do you have to go into multi-day fast to truly get autophagy benefits? – It’s has to depend upon like what’s the overall metabolic
status of the person so to say? If let’s say autophagy’s
mostly regulated by nutrients, so that the nutrients such
as amino acids and glucose are the main ones that regulate autophagy. So as long as, as soon as your body becomes deprived of those things, then autophagy will kinda
like start increasing in a dose-specific manner. It’s not like an on and off switch. And let’s say if you’re a healthy person, if you’re not consuming excess
amount of carbohydrates, if you don’t have excess information, and you’re not like consuming excessive amounts of protein either, then your body will go into this depleted state faster so to say. It doesn’t have like a bigger
buffer zone to burn through. If your glycogen stores are all full, then it’s gonna simply take a longer time for you to experience these benefits. And let’s say you can
also, so on a keto diet, let’s say on a low carb keto diet, then you can expect to gain
some autophagic benefits already within the 16 hour mark. Or like fasting for then be like 20 hours, then you’ll already be in
somewhat deep autophagy just because you don’t
have like excess glycogen and you don’t have that many amino acids floating around the system. – And you know, I’m
sure a question crops up in some people’s mind at this stage going okay so we’re saying
there’s all these benefits with autophagy, is there
any way that I can test that I’m actually doing this autophagy thing? Or that it’s having an effect on my body? Would you say that there is any way that someone could test it? – Well currently we don’t have like any way of measuring autophagy in humans. All the, all the tests and
all the studies are done in other, other species like
mice and fruit flies and such. And they measure the
amount of autophagic flux, or the amount of autophagy related genes you know floating around
the, around the organism. But I would say that although
you can’t measure it directly you can still predict it so to say. That you can make some presumptions based upon the research
that we currently have. Such as you know if you know that the word glycogen and lower amino acids promote autophagy and
you know that fasting depletes them then you
can predict that okay you know around the 24 mark I will be in quite deep autophagy already. But there are some, some
things that may give you some direct feedback that
potentially can hint towards whether or not you are
in this autophagic state. And you can measure it with
you insulin to glucagon ratio. If your glucagon tends to
be higher than your insulin, then you’re more, glucagon
promotes the breakdown of glycogen and glucagon
promotes ketogenesis as well. So glucagon will also promote the all the catabolic processes in the body and autophagy itself
is a catabolic process that breaks down old cells. So if your insulin is
high then those things will be negated and in the other example of glucagon being higher, then you can predict that you know there’s more autophagy
and more ketogenesis. You can’t, I don’t know like, I’m not sure if you could potentially measure
insulin or glucagon at home but you can measure it at your doctor. But what you can measure
at your home would be like the glucose ketone index as well. If your glucose is lower
and your ketones are higher, and you’re already fasting
then you can make some you know guestimates of
whether or not you are in this autophagic state. But it’s not like direct. It’s definitely not perfect. We will definitely want
to have like something that was gonna give you like
direct feedback of autophagy but you know at the moment
we don’t have anything that is feasible in humans. And for anyone, I don’t
think we defined the word “autophagy” for some
listeners that might not know. But it’s like, it’s just like cleaning up dead or bad cells or
old cells in the body. It’s like.
– Yeah. – Spring cleaning the body
in a way, in multiple places. – It literally translates into self-eating and eating of self. And your healthy cells
kinda start to remove all the weaker and the
dysfunctional components of the cells and convert
them back into energy. – And this is, all ties into
your Mind Body Empowerment because this gives you ability to get the best out of your body,
the best out of your mind. – Yeah, yeah in the sense
that autophagy is really critical factors for
longevity and it helps to remove you know
dysfunctional mitochondria that cause inflammation. And one of the reasons
why people tend to age or they die in the first place is because mitochondria are becoming
weaker and mitochondria are losing their function so autophagy keeps the mitochondria
youthful and prevents them from becoming dysfunctional. And also like for cognitive performance autophagy is also quite
important for clearing out the beta amyloid plaques
that happens in Alzheimer’s so it can prevent like cognitive decline and other sort of issues. So in some other, in some other species, for instance in mice, autophagy’s
also like directly linked to the increased life span
from caloric restriction if the mice are blocked from autophagy, like they’re genetically modified, then they’re not gonna live longer even and they’re put under
huge caloric restriction. Versus the other mice that
do have autophagy activated, those mice will still live longer. So autophagy’s still like
a really important part of the longevity benefits that you get from caloric restriction. – And I wanna get into now multi-day fasts because I think I have seen
somewhere that you share a nice recipe, like a how to step, to get started into a three day fast. Could you maybe just share
some of your thoughts then? If someone’s now ready, they’ve done the time restricted feeding, they feel comfortable, it’s
like they’ve broken that routine and that mindset that
they’re dictated by food and they’re like well
Siim said I should try this three day fast this quarter, just to see what it’s like. What would be your tips for
someone who’s trying to do a three day fast for the first time? How do they start it? – Yeah like.
– Or should it be a three day fast or a one day fast? – Well I would say that
if the person hasn’t tried like a 24 hour fast or like
a eating once a day only, then they should try
that first just to know. Like how does it feel to go like for a longer period of time without food, which in reality like isn’t
that like a long time really. (chuckling) But yeah
obviously like a real fast would be like a three day
fast or a two day fast. Like a person can start
with like a 48 hour fasts before they try a three day fasts because usually the most difficult parts of any kind of longer fast
is around the 24 hour mark. Where you’re like used to having some food but you’re not getting it
and then you’re creating this huge sort of a
psychological you know response and psychological freak out (chuckling) that you think that
something is gonna go wrong. But in reality if you kinda skip that, if you go past it, then
everything is gonna be fine. But the only problem is that
you know you may get hungry and that’s gonna make it
difficult for you to fall asleep. Once you fall asleep, and
you wake up and the next day then you’re gonna be in
like very deep ketosis and deeper autophagy as well which will kind of prevent hunger and
stop all the cravings as well. The most difficult part is to yeah, get to bed and fall asleep. So what I tend to do is, having like definitely using
some sort of herbal teas or decaf coffee in the evening, that can be also good to help you to you know stave off hunger while still being able to fall asleep. And additional things that
can also help with hunger is like apple cider vinegar
with some hot water. That’s gonna be good to
shut down the hunger signals and it’s not necessarily gonna
stop the fasted state either because see apple cider
vinegar can promote ketones as well as like stimulate autophagy. A little bit, and the amount
of apple cider vinegar you would take is also
like one to two teaspoons. So it’s not gonna be like significant. – And so that you, you find, sorry. – The best, the best, the best thing, the best thing everyone
can do before starting of any of these longer
fasts is to start eating low carb at least a few days before that. Because it will help them
to become more fat deducted. It will condition the body to
use some fatty acids for fuel and will also deplete the glycogen faster. So you’re going to get
into the therapeutic range of ketosis as well as autophagy faster if you were eating like
a lower carb keto diet. So before, before starting
a three day fasts, I would at least eat low carb, you know two days before that just to deplete the glycogen and
become keto adapted more. And doing the fasts you simply drink you know like some water added salts maybe some electrolytes just to
balance your electrolytes and to prevent any fatigue
and you know other things that you could drink are maybe like coffee and some herbal teas. – Okay yeah so that’s a great tip there to say if you’re gonna do a multi day fast go low carb so you start
getting into that state versus trying to to jump in
from a high carbohydrate state and go yeah it’s fine I’ll just jump straight into three day.
– Yeah. – Three day fast. – Yeah, because because
like when you are doing these longer fasts then you
have to get into ketosis or you wanna get into
ketosis as soon as possible because if you’re fasting
and you’re not in ketosis like coming from a high carb
diet or after a cheat day even then in that case you’re more predisposed to losing some of your muscle tissue through gluconeogenesis, so to say. And your like gluconeogenesis
is driven by demand and when you’re fasting
without the presence of ketones then the demand of glucose is still there and your body will take that
glucose from your protein from your muscle tissue versus
if you have ketones present you become keto adapted before that then there’s not gonna be a
demand for gluconeogenesis because your body can
run safely on ketones. So definitely the critical
part from preventing any muscle catabolism during
a fast is to get to ketosis. – So again great tip. I’m just think yeah so some
people may be following a way of eating where they have cheat days like carb back night solution
or something like that, another way of eating and so they’re like oh I’ve just binged on
a whole bunch of food maybe I should do a three
day fast to cleanse now and it’s like no that’s
maybe not the best time to try a fast now. – Yeah, yeah it’s not gonna be, it’s not, you could do it and
you would probably be fine. But I would say, it would
be easier for you to fast if you simply had like a keto diet, at least one day of keto before that. – And then I love that tip where you said especially that first day
then by the end of the day and you, you might be thinking
oh I’ve been hungry all day because I haven’t had a meal all day and it’s that first, maybe
that first or second night where you think oh I’m struggling to sleep cus my tummy’s rumbling or something. And then you’d have the
herbal tea or decaf coffee or apple cider vinegar drink
just to settle your stomach to let you sleep that night. – Yeah, yeah it is. Like the most difficult
part is going to bed. And you necessarily don’t want to, you don’t want to cash in on all these appetite suppressants either. Like you don’t want to
become too addicted to coffee and drink like five to 10
cups of coffee during the fast because it’s gonna not be worth it because the overstimulating cortisol and that getting too caffeinated. So you wanna use them only when you actually get hungry so to say. – And then what are your
views on people who workout? Is it okay to workout
during that fasting period? Or should you be, I guess it depends on what they’re trying to achieve
in their metabolic health again but yeah if you’re healthy would it be okay to workout? I’m thinking if you’re unhealthy then you’re gonna be using
it as a recovery period so don’t stress your body. – I would say that it is still a good idea to stay active and keep moving your body whether that be going
for like longer walks or doing some yoga or something like that. That’s gonna be very good
and it will actually help to you know keep your mind busy as well, as well as prevent the hunger. So whenever I usually get hungry maybe, I will usually maybe go
for a longer walk instead. And that’s gonna help to
mobilize some of the fat stores and basically keep me satiated for longer but other types of more
resistance training type of workouts, those can also be useful and they will probably help with maintaining more muscle mass. Because if you’re fasting
and you’re not doing anything then you potentially will
lose more muscle mass much more faster than if you were to do some sort of light activity. It doesn’t have to do,
it’s doesn’t have to be like a very heavy resistance training, or high intensity interval
training or something like that. You can simply do some like calisthenics, some pushups, some squats. You can use like some
of the resistance bands and you can still kind of
like stimulate the muscles and that would be useful for
sending the body the signal that we still need to have muscle. And we don’t necessarily want to lose it. – So not a big heavy workout
where you push yourself to fatigue levels, that’s
not the time to do that. – It’s not gonna be worth it, so to say. So you probably won’t have enough energy to hit PRs and personal
records so. (chuckling) Why not, why bother so to say? You can simply take it as a time to deload and aim for maybe like
submaximal type of exercise with like resistance
training with your own body and some resistance bands. – And so with the time
length and you saying that you’ve experimented
with it sounds like three to five days. Do you think that just that three day is the optimal window that someone could try to get to eventually? Cus there seems to be
there a nice balance then for the autophagy but not
creating any negative effects from fasting like three
days is a good number? – Yeah the longest I’ve
fasted for has to do with like a week, I fasted for a week. And usually when I were
having this therapeutic fasts, then I will aim for yeah
three to five days at maximum. And I do think that, and
there will be probably a point of diminishing returns. After that point, after three days is usually the optimal dose. And there’s not gonna be
like a significant reason to go beyond that unless
you have like some sort of a real medical conditions. If you have like maybe again
like diabetes or cancer or some tumors then you
may want to consider going for longer but like a healthy person who is simply doing like housekeeping, or they want to go into deeper ketosis, or lose some fat then for
them it’s not necessary to fast any longer than three
to five days in my opinion. – And then once someone’s gone
through the fasting period, it’s always how do a break the fast? What’s your tips on the
best way to break it? – What I like to do is always start whatever I am eating
anything then I would usually start off with some apple cider vinegar and some hot lemon water. And maybe sliced, a few
slices of some boiled ginger in there as well to promote
the digestive enzymes as well as direct more
blood flow into the gut. And it’s gonna be good to, it’s gonna be better for
like absorbing the foods and preventing any sort
of constipation or such. And it’s, it’s usually
that would be something you know I would start
off from like any type of fasting window whether
that be like the 16/8 or OMAD or like a three day fast. Then moving on from there
I would have to look at how long have I been fasting for? If I come from like a shorter fast, that is less than 24
hours then I would consume maybe something with some probiotics and some digestive
enzymes like sauerkraut, fermented foods, or maybe some avocados, or again some raw ginger. Or if I’m consuming carbs or something then I may take some like
bananas or kiwi or some fruit. Something like that. If I’m coming from like a longer fast, then I may also want to add in some like broths, broth liquids, or soups. Something to simply more, stimulate more of the digestive enzymes as well as again make the gut wake up so to say. Because you don’t
necessarily want to consuming very hard to digest foods
immediately coming off from a longer fasts because your gut isn’t probably ready for it. And it would be better
to kind of ease into it. – So again, great tip. I love that, all the actionable stuff that you’re sharing here. So coming off that fast,
something again that people were drinking like apple
cider vinegar drink or a lemon drink with lemon tea, that just helps stimulate
the blood flow to the guts to say hey get ready I’m
about to maybe try to eat here so it’s not gonna be a
big shock to your body. – Yeah, yeah and like specifically like ginger and, and lemon water,
and apple cider vinegar they also help with the
breakdown of proteins so to say. So you, you would always want to absorb the proteins that you
eat and just to you know repair your body as well as
recover from the fasts better. So that’s gonna be helping with that. – So I’m interested,
so we’ve sort of given the practical ways doing this and you, so mentally and physically
like what are some of the experiences that you’ve had
during these fasted states? – Funny enough like when I was doing my anthropological research for my thesis, a few years ago at a meditation retreat, then I was also fasting
during that time period so it was already like a
more profound experience where I was meditating
a lot and I was fasting at the same time so (chuckling) I would say that during the fasted state I tend to, or during
these longer fasted states I tend to experience not only like this heightened mental clarity and focus, but also this sort of a blissful feeling of not being attached
to anything so to say. I don’t feel, I don’t feel
the desire to have food even. I don’t feel the desire to have any kind of material possessions or whatever. I’m simply laying there or
like I’m simply feeling my body in some way and experiencing what goes on. So I can feel maybe like there may be like some sort of increased heart rate or like accelerated blood
flow in some regions and it makes you feel
very blissful and relaxed. You don’t really care about
anything else that goes on, you’re simply like experiencing
everything that goes on. And it’s very, I would describe it as like some sort of a blissful state where you’re free from attachments as well as being very at ease and very present. – Yeah so it’s a way of
super charging mindfulness and making you feel great. – Yeah, yeah it is. And like you can also
experience some aspects of it when you are in like very deep ketosis. And there will be like this one point during a longer fast, maybe like around you know 48 hour mark
or something like that, you will experience this sort of a shift where you can, you know
everything lights up and you’re very alert all
the time, all the time. And that’s sort of a part of a blend of this raising ketones
as well as the raise in cortisol and adrenaline
and everything that goes on. So it is kind of a funny,
funny feeling. (chuckling). – So I think we’ve
explored the three day fast and the how to get fasted. Just going onto the extreme end of things, what do you think of
some fasting techniques like dry fasting? I’ve had some people
comment on some of the interviews I’ve done saying
hey I’ve done dry fasting, or have you ever explored
the concept of dry fasting? With you having experienced fasting and researched it so much,
do you have a viewpoint on is dry fasting good or bad? – I would say that, it may at first sound even more crazier than
these like longer fasts, but it does also make, make
metabolic sense as well. Because if you’re not, if
you’re not drinking water, then your body will still
produce the water it needs from the process of beta
oxidation and the burning of fat, the byproduct of that creates hydrogen so it’s still gonna keep your body hydrated. And that’s how camels and
other animals also survive longer periods of dehydration. They’re not carrying
around water with them, but they’re simply
converting their own body fat into water and keeping
theirselves nourished in that way. The reason, like many research done on it, practically no research at all, but there are some anecdotal
results from a lot of people, as well as different let’s
say traditional type of homeopathic medicine practitioners from Russia and other places where they do incorporate into their
practice and specifically there’s this Russian doctor, I don’t recall his exact
name but he’s Dr Felinov or someone (chuckling) who has said to be curing a lot of his
patients by putting them on these longer dry fasts and curing cancer and other similar diseases. There is still, there is
although there is some truth that dehydration will inhibit mTOR a lot and it will also stimulate
AMPK and autophagy. So you can predict, you can
also make some guestimates that it will have like a similar benefit as you would get from a
longer extended water fast. But the kinda, the degree
of intensity is much higher than on a water fasts you know because you’re not drinking water. You’re probably not be able
to be as physically active and you probably won’t be
able to fast as longer, as long, as long as that. You probably have to cut
it off after maybe like three days maximum or such. And then follow it up with a proper, a proper dehydration period. – I’ve always wanted to ask someone like does dry fasting sounds fascinating, I need to explore this topic more. Why would someone want to do that? – It’s like you can, you can still do like daily time restricted
dry fasting so to say. Like I’ve been experimenting that and I’ve seen some good results in it from like improved digestion as well as more, more fat burning during the day and simply feeling quite mentally clear. Because you don’t really feel very tired when you are doing a dry fasting. If you feel, I would say
that if you were to be drinking a lot of water,
then that would be worse than to dry fast. Because if you’re drinking
too much water all the time, then you may potentially excrete a lot of the electrolytes and minerals versus if you were to dry fast then you’re gonna retain
all of those minerals and that’s gonna help you to
feel better doing the fast. So a shorter, shorter 16
hour dry fast is quite easy and it’s gonna be, it can be
done even more frequently than even like a longer three day fasts. – That’s a fascinating concept. So yeah. Time restricted dry fasting. – Yeah, yeah. – Just saying okay, maybe only
in one or two hours in a day I’m gonna consume liquids or that’s when I eat my meal too like OMAD. But all those other times
I’m gonna try avoid liquids. – Yeah you don’t have, it doesn’t
have to be like that long. You can again like maybe cut
off all liquids after dinner and help you to you
know empty your bladder before going to bed by doing that. And then in the morning wait a few hours, and that’s gonna create already like at least like a 12 hour or
14 hour dry fasting window, which is gonna be pretty good. – Again Siim this is why
I wanted to get you on, I thought you were gonna be fascinating and you definitely are so (laughing) I love, I love all of these concepts. We’re coming up for the hour mark here, so yeah this is usually
a time when I get to ask are there any particular social places that you want people to
follow you or if someone wants to contact you? I don’t know if you’ve got, I
think you’ve some books maybe? Or some publications
around fasting and keto? How would people get hold of that? – Yeah they can definitely
check out my YouTube, which is one of my most active platforms. Siim Land on YouTube. On other, on other platforms
I’m also Siim Land. My podcast is also on YouTube, and it’s Body Mind Empowerment on iTunes. But for my books, I do
have some books about keto, like keto fasting and keto body building. But I also am publishing my upcoming book called Metabolic Autophagy which will go into more deep, into more detail about how do you stimulate
autophagy with fasting and how do you balance it out appropriately with the other aspects of doing properly refeeds
and doing resistance training and exercise and how do you promote your longevity with that. – Fantastic and I’ll link to all of these in the show notes for listeners but I just wanna say thank
you again for your time and yeah your in depth
actionable tips there, I really did enjoy that today. – Alright, thanks, thanks for having me and it was fun, fun talking with you. (pleasant jingle)

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Reader Comments

  1. M Wolfe

    I couldn’t click fast enough! I watch all of Siim’s videos but somehow I still learned some new things. Another great interview, thanks!

  2. northstar730

    Dry fasting today (day 1) and the plan is to water fast for the next 4 days. If one day of dry fasting equals 3 days water fasting, then I should get a total of 7 days worth of benefits. 🤞

  3. Marco

    In the second day of fasting I experience a kind of euphoria that makes me want to work out. But this pushes the hunger up at evening. Next time I try to fast longer than 48h I'll keep the exercises at minimum, just to stimulate the muscles

  4. aniccadance13

    I had amazing blissful states of heightened awareness during 10-day water fasts coupled with insight meditation. I have always been slim but now after a few years on keto diet, even slimmer, so I gave up longer fasts, I keep to time restricted feeding only.

  5. Laura Ritter

    I'm surprised there is no link to Slim Land's youtube channel. No description of who he is because I have no idea and I'm always watching keto and intermittent fasting videos. I'm happy I found both of you.

  6. Over Comer

    Gary Gary Gary you are simply one of the best Interviewers Ever. I am going to make it my mission to tell all my patients about you. I'm an eye doctor and I see tons of diabetics every single day. And I just get so excited every time you have a new interview with someone because you're just a brilliant interviewer I it's only a matter of time before your channel absolutely explodes keep at it Gary don't give up. Your simply marvelous interviewing style and the caliber of your guestsWill not go unnoticedBy bright intelligent viewers.

  7. Robert Jones

    Go to 25:32 for the key piece of advice. If you want to try fasting, the first step is to become fat adapted. For the beginner, this requires a very low carb diet for at least 48 hours. I find that eating a lot of animal fat during those 48 hours helps in the transition from carb burning to fat adapted. Beef ribs, pork ribs, beef brisket, pork belly, and egg yolks cooked in bacon grease or grass fed butter are all good foods to help your become fat adapted. Your stomach is full and you feel sated. Your blood is full of the fatty acids you ate, so you have plenty of fuel. Within 48 hours, your glycogen will be depleted, and your body will start using fatty acids. After that, it is easy to use your stored fat to fuel your body, just like you do while you are sleeping. And you can alternate between eating keto meals and fasting. If you are obese, you can easily fast for three days straight, just drink water with electrolytes (sea salt and potassium chloride). If you are already lean, you can eat within a four-hour window every other day to get the maximum benefits from autophagy.

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